Do we really think the build quality of these is even in the same state, much less the same ballpark, as a MBP?

Do we really still think Apple products are the gold standard in hardware?

OS agnostic here (I’ve worked professionally in all three major OSes and on both Apple and a variety of Windows machines, currently enjoying WSL2 on my Dell XPS 9700).

Apple’s laptop hardware still seems to be the gold standard to me. I have 10 year old laptops that still work great. My 2.5 year old Dell is currently with Dell for out of warranty repairs. I have no other windows machines left. All of them had an 4ish year lifespan are now dead and were not worth fixing. Current machine not withstanding; it’s too young to die.

Edit: I will add that I’m perfectly happy with my other windows machines, just that the build quality was such that I their natural lifespan was simply shorter.

> Apple’s laptop hardware still seems to be the gold standard to me. I have 10 year old laptops that still work great.

Last time I looked at second hand laptops. Most of those the +5y old macbooks in the market had huge issues / defects (and also looked like shit) while you could find a lot of decent refurbished thinkpads and HP elitebook from the same era with no advertized defects (and those I bought didn't have any). I am excluding battery life as regarldess of the brand all needed a brand new one.

So they seem to be the gold standard when new. But they certainly don't age so well.

Many would agree that the middle years between 2015-2020 were not gold standard. It’s laughable to suggest Apple didn’t win the title back with the advent of the M1.

In term of perf/watts ratio yes. In term or reliability the jury is still out.

How many 10 year old M1s are on the secondhand market?

Another sample, my MBP set itself on fire in the boot of my car (examination revealed, the thunderbolt or whatever chip ignited).

My XPS13 is going strong after years of abuse and being lugged around the world in hand luggage.

My old powerbook and ibook (remember those?!) Both had live current running through the case screws which caused a stingy shock on bare legs.

I've never seen an Apple laptop that didn't look nice but ultimately have weird issues

My dell XPS has been going strong for 5 years now, replaced the battery and upgraded the SSD in that time but it's been a pretty impressive machine and definitely on par with apple laptops I've had in the past

Genuinely curious what is better. MacBook Pros have been the gold standard for a while and now with the ARM chips they are pretty much unbeatable in my eyes.

Thinkpad for me is the gold standard because I can swap out the components and they have videos and guides of how to do so on their website. Their materials are sturdy and light.

MacBooks may use some nice materials, and their processors are interesting, but for a customer like me that prefers to install the hardware and software of my choice either today or in ten years, they have no products I'm interested in.

I've never had to sell or retire any machine I've had in the last twenty years, they're all somewhere doing something right now.

Personally, I tend to err on the side of hardware that can take a fall from waist-height and not set me back $600. To each their own though, I guess.

What kind of computer hardware meets that criteria? Toughbooks?

Thinkpads haven't failed me yet, even if it's a cliched response. The display isn't apt to breaking like a Macbook, and the chassis does a surprisingly good job reducing shock (even on later models). Toughbooks are probably a shoo-in with that logic, and I'd like to try one of HP's recent Elitebooks to see how they stack up.

My Macs usually stay at home if I have a more rugged machine to take with me, just for the peace of mind. It's probably a matter of personal distrust, but I'm a clumsy guy...

Thinkpad build quality is definitely on a slow decline. There's a lot more plastic casework in a new model than in a T440, say. They don't feel completely rigid in hand any more. And that's before the loss of a removable, upgradeable battery and the advent of soldered RAM.

A second hand T-series is still what I'd default to if I need a laptop for now (especially for the keyboard), but I'm aware that this is likely not going to forever remain the obvious choice it used to be.

Agreed, I'm waiting for the verdict to come back on Framework or some Linux OEMs before I upgrade my T460s. The product line isn't headed in a formidable direction, but I'm glad that there have been other manufacturers eying the space.

at least Thinkpad and Gram just from my own direct experience.

But in years past a mbp and an imac that never fell an inch killed themselves from the bad video chips, which Apple and their supposedly gold standard support refused to warranty and by the time they lost in court years later the damage was already done and cost various friends the price of new machines.

Other that those famous examples like that and the keyboards, just in general among all the machines I intersect with, the Apples don't fare any better. They all get busted screens, busted ports, busted hinges, exploded batteries. In fact HP and Apple seem to have to most cases of glued in batteries that expand and break the rest of the machine.

So far my Framework has met that criteria. It's taken a few tumbles.

Currently, especially with the addition of the ARM CPU, I think yes. I have a pretty new MBP (~1 year old) and it's great but my previous MBP had cooling problems - almost anything made it go lawn mower mode.

Apple people think that. They rarely leave their walled garden.